Response to critiques on 'Brief Bible thoughts on women's ordination'

Since first writing on the topic of gender-neutral ordination (Brief Bible thoughts on women's ordination) several months ago, I have received several varied and interesting critiques of the article I wrote. Below are my responses to the best of those critiques, along with a slightly revised version of my August article after my responses. I also deal with the issue of women working well in China as pastors, and an argument drawn from Joel 2 in favor of ordination of women (sermon at Pioneer Memorial Church). I believe the prevalence of these two arguments and the apparent validity of the several critiques warrants another edition.

Excerpts from letters answering concerned readers of my August article Brief Bible thoughts on women's ordination

To “Mary” You ask a good question regarding what authority a church elder has in the church. I am not sure whether you are asking, “What authority should he have?” or “What authority has the church given him to exercise today?” They are not the same question. As my writing is in regard to the ideal, let me address the first question.

In the New Testament, the elders do have authority. Their authority is not a kingly one, and I think that is a point you are making. But it is a teaching authority. They regulate the doctrinal teaching of the church (see the disputed passage in 1 Timothy 2 as well as Titus 1:11).

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Again, this is a delegated authority. Yes, as you say, it rests ultimately with the whole church and more particularly with the church business meeting that chooses its elders.

Responsibility and authority always come together. You cannot have one without the other. When a person is given a responsibility, he or she must be given sufficient authority to carry it out.

So what real authority does an elder have? The elders can say, “Joe will not be teaching in this sanctuary.” The elders can call a meeting and explain that Laura is a futurist and that her teachings are not to be countenanced. Anyone else could, feasibly, do these things, but the elders are responsible to do them. And for that reason, their teaching is considered authoritative. They answer to God for the words of instruction that they allow to assault the ears of their charges.

This teaching authority is best possessed by those who can handle it impersonally. Joe is wrong, not because he is mean, but because his facts are skewed. Jim is right, even though he is a lousy communicator, because his facts are right. While this may seem like it is neither here nor there, it is a hint at God’s reasoning in the gender distinctions given regarding local church administration. Some issues are best handled relationally, others are best handled objectively.

Gender uniqueness matches the work well for another reason. The trade skills of an elder are passed on through mentoring (See 2 Timothy 2:2). And gender A to gender B mentoring is a moral liability.

The business of the church (how to handle the budget, where to build the addition, whose project to fund) was never intended to be in the domain of the elders. It was to be the work of deacons. There is no human authority over other humans in the business authority of the church.

In other words, while we might think of the ability to fire the janitor as a much higher level of authority than the ability to shush an errant teacher, we would be thinking wrongly. The church is the body of believers, not the body of property holders. Regulating the teaching of the body is the highest level of authority God has given to the church.

To “Michael” You wrote “Some of the arguments [in favor of women’s ordination] seem weak to me, but there were some unfamiliar quotes in there in which EGW apparently endorsed women acting as pastors:”

Even in Colporteur Ministry EGW speaks about men and women doing “pastoral” labor. It is part of that otherwise famous quote:

If there is one work more important than another, it is that of getting our publications before the public, thus leading them to search the Scriptures. Missionary work--introducing our publications into families, conversing, and praying with and for them--is a good work and one which will educate men and women to do pastoral labor.--Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 390. (1880) {CM 7.1}

Ellen White wrote often about ladies working and it seems clear enough to me that she had in mind “caring for the flock” as women are needed to do.

When men and women accept the truth, we are not to go away and leave them and have no further burden for them. They are to be looked after. They are to be carried as a burden upon the soul, and we must watch over them as stewards who must render an account. Then as you speak to the people, give to every man his portion of meat in due season, but you want to be in that position where you can give this food.--Manuscript 13, 1888. {Ev 345.2}

But are the female pastoral workers needed to care for both classes, men and women? Not ideally. No, they are needed to shepherd a certain part. So says the Bible.

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children.

Women instructors should labor with the young women, not to see how much work can be gained from them, but to win their love and confidence. When this is won, there will be no difficulty about the work, for the workers will be filled with a desire to please. {PM 259.5}

To “Many” regarding China If the Lord Jesus had only played things smoothly in John six, the Christian church would have gotten off to a much larger start. Thousands were inclined to follow Him that day. They were ready to take risks for His kingdom.

But at the end of the day, only a handful of persons were still following Him and He was off the radar map of the twitter-happy types.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Then again, the early church could have been much better funded long before the cross if Jesus had not handled one seeker so strictly. By requiring the earnest man to sell his possessions, it seems that Jesus squelched his interest in the truth.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

What I am saying is that it is impossible to gather, from apparent spiritual successes in evangelism and church work, evidence regarding what God wants us to do. If in China there are lady pastors doing a successful work, may God bless their work with faithfulness to the Bible rule. Underground there may be a very different picture of what God is doing. But all this is neither here nor there. Why?

The Bible, not experience, is the ground of our faith and practice. We do what God says.

To Readers of a Sermon at Pioneer Memorial Church on the Topic of Ordination

Indeed, God will pour out His Spirit on both genders. May the Latter Rain come soon! But there is a significant fallacy in this argument: Since God will empower and fill ladies in the future, we have Bible evidence that God is changing His gender-role directions for the last day church.

What is the fallacy? The future filling of women by the Spirit is no change at all. There have been female prophets since early days. There have been many of them. They have spanned more than a thousand year of Bible history.

And for all that, we find no evidence of female priest or elder.

Then there is no evidence that God will make a change. And the whole bit of oratory becomes empty.

Brief Bible thoughts on women's ordination (revised)

Additional remarks have been italicized.

The Issues and the Issue

Silence can be eloquence. And on the issue of women’s ordination to the gospel ministry in the Adventist church, too much has already been said. Books have been written on both sides of the issue. The anti-ordination camp has urged that the Bible settles this issue decidedly. The pro-ordination camp retorts that the Bible writers conformed to cultural norms in their day when they limited the role of women in local church administration.

And I, of course, have highly oversimplified the issue by making such a summary.

Complicating matters, somewhat, are two facts: the Bible abounds with evidence of women prophets, but never of a female priest.

Nevertheless, I agree with many who argue that the real issue at stake here is the question of scriptural authority versus higher critical nay-saying.

The New Testament Data

When the Bible outlines the qualifications for being an elder, they are worded in distinctly gender-specific terms. The elder is to be the “husband of one wife” and to “rule” his house well. The apostle argues that if he is not able to rule his house, how can he be expected to rule the church well?

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

If we ask the question, “who is authorized in the Bible to rule the home?” we have a simple answer even in Genesis 3:16. Paul makes reference to this fact also in the verses just before the ones above.

1 Timothy 2:11  Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

These three verses are located just between an exhortation to women to adorn themselves with meekness and the announcement that if a “man desire the office” of an elder, that he does well. What kind of teaching then, did Paul have in mind in verse 12? He certainly didn’t mean that a woman could never teach anyone under any circumstance. After all, he commanded elder women to teach younger women and children (see Titus 2:3-5).

The “teaching” in verse 12 is united to the idea of “authority” in the same verse. Now teaching authority in the church belongs to the elders. So this passage is about the issue of women’s ordination to the position of “elder.” And that is plain simply by the fact that, after commenting on the perils of giving birth, Paul next addresses who should be permitted to teach with authority.

The reason that a woman is refused such a position is plain in the passages above. She ought to be subject to her own husband. And how, then, can she be in authority over him? She ought to submit to his headship. How then can she rule well her own home?

These same arguments are used by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians.

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.  35  And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The “speaking” here cannot be a reference to speaking in general. Earlier in the same book Paul laid down regulations for females to pray and prophecy in assembly. Rather, the speaking and silence and obedience here must be the same as those mentioned in the 1 Timothy verses. These speeches are the authoritative teaching of elders.

The idea of gender distinction in family government is plainly present in several other New Testament passages.  (See Colossians 3:18, Ephesians 5:22-24, 1 Peter 3:1, 5-6.) Some persons can see no light in extrapolating the male-headship-in-the-home into the realm of church governance. Nonetheless, the home is the training ground for church governance. That is the logic behind Paul’s statements on the qualifications for being an elder.

But what about the issue of prophets? We mentioned earlier that female prophets were present in Corinth. Even the female prophets, by the way they kept their hair, were to show their submission to their husband, their spiritual head.

1 Corinthians 11:5  But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

This is not, of course, the only New Testament reference to women praying or prophesying. Acts 21:9 records that Philip had four daughters that were prophets. The assembly by the river was a meeting place for women and a place where prayer was routinely made. Acts 16:39.

Were women refused the position of elders because of cultural norms? If this was the case, Paul had opportunity to either argue this way or to give no reasons at all. So how did he found his argument? In his writing, he founded it on the order of creation, the origin of sin, the teaching of nature regarding gender, the model of ancient holy persons. And never once did he found it on the customs of the Jews or of the Romans or of the varied peoples among whom he founded churches.

To ignore his reasoning while countering his conclusion is to discount his authority. And as I said in the introduction, this is the primary issue.

Were women involved in ministry in the New Testament? Indeed. Even Jesus had women that ministered to Him and that, to at least some extent, traveled with Him.

Mark 15:40  There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41  (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.

Lu 8:3  And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Acts records the work of a husband-wife team that worked hand-in-hand with Paul, the author of the anti-ordain passages. Acts 18:2-3.

Why would God allow women to minister to Jesus, to plant churches, to prophesy and pray in public, and yet refuse to them the position of elder?

Prophets have no personal authority associated with their gift. They speak for God. Socially, if they are a daughter (as were Philip’s four prophets), then they still are a daughter. They are still subject to their father. And when God speaks through them, they are as subject to those words as are the others that hear.

So Ellen White can be a prophet and James White can be an elder and theirs can be a happy home. (And it was, most of their married life.)

By way of contrast, the position of elder has personal authority with it. Let me explain.

When men organize themselves into any type of group and choose one of their own number to be a director, they are choosing to submit part of their individual independence to each other and to the leader. They do this for efficiency. Even angels are ordered in such a way.

Are such men saying that one is fundamentally superior to themselves in strength or intelligence? No. All they are really doing is saying that things will work better if there is order. And as order requires that someone do the delegating, they choose one of their own for that purpose.

That is what the church does. The choosing of only men to the position of elder is no statement of male superiority. It is only acting in harmony with a divine policy established to maintain efficient and orderly action.

So women may teach Sabbath school classes. They may conduct VBS. They may lead a stewardship drive. They may help their husbands plant a church. They may even do pastoral work in the fullest sense of caring for the flock. But may they be placed in headship over the flock? No. That would upset the order of the family.

But what if she is single? No, that won’t fix it. To put her in the elder’s position would be to forbid her to marry. And that would be too similar to a doctrine of devils.

Old Testament Data

In the Old Testament women figure prominently. Huldah the prophet was probably a professor in the “college.” Deborah was the courage behind Barak’s success. Miriam won the hearts of her nation and led them in anthems. Women, elsewhere, show up most often in their positions as significant mothers.

But never, in all the history of the Old Testament, do we find a female priest.

“Wait!” says one. “Wasn’t it a whole nation of priests?” Oh, yes, that is true. But that was part of Korah’s argument when he wanted to be exalted to an administrative position. And it didn’t hold much theological weight by the end of Numbers 16. (It did seem to hold some at the beginning of the chapter.)

The fact is that when we select a man to be an elder, he is our peer. We are not obliged to believe what he says, despite our understanding of Scripture. He is not our prophet. We are not obliged to do what he says despite the dictates of our conscience. He is not our king. But we are to respect his headship for order’s sake. We expect him to the take the lead and we need him to do so.

In like manner, when God chose an Old Testament person to be a priest, he was a peer of his wife and relatives and fellow Israelites. They were, after all, a kingdom of priests. But they pooled their priesthood and conferred it on someone who could exercise it for their mutual benefit. And so they respected their God-chosen priests.

This is how Luther explained it when he preached about the priesthood of believers. He wrote that the priesthood belongs to everyone, but that not everyone can exercise it. So the body chooses who will exercise the authority that they all possess. (If they didn’t possess it, he reasoned, they wouldn’t be able to give it to their pastor.) And so, as long as a woman has a voting right in choosing the elders for the local church, she shows that she is a true possessor of the priesthood. For order’s sake, she gives her part of it to the man chosen to represent the whole.

Ellen White and Adventist History

While the prophet lived the issue of woman’s suffrage was a hot political one. Women in the United States had taken the lead in many social issues, from nursing to the care of deranged persons, to the advocacy of temperance.

And in the Adventist church itself a group of women led out in one of the most successful and pervasive of all revivals, the introduction of the Tract and Missionary Society. Often a woman presided over that organization. The directorship of this organization was one of the most significant positions in the denomination.

But women were not ordained to the gospel ministry. We were the people of the Book. And the Book spoke clearly on this issue. We had a woman prophet and the Book smiled on that. It did not smile on the idea of having women elders. (Ordaining women was suggested once in meeting. It didn’t get as far as a vote.)

Conclusion

For years I have hesitated to write on this issue, and for only one reason. I wasn’t sure where to draw the line Biblically regarding women teaching and leading in church functions outside that of ordained elder. That issue is resolved for me now by the proximity of 1 Timothy 2 to 1 Timothy 3.

The Bible isn't confusing. If it takes long arguments to make it that way, the arguments are at fault rather than the Bible. Nearly all the primary verses used in Biblical studies of this topic could fit on two pieces of paper.

If a man desires the office of an elder, he desires a good thing.

If a woman desires the same, she doesn’t understand. She cannot rule her house well. If she rules it, that is not well. And so, like all the other members of the church, she gives of her priesthood authority to the men chosen by her and by the church to exercise it. And then she respects that authority that, originally, was hers.

Amen.

Brief Bible thoughts on women’s ordination

The Issues and the IssueSilence can be eloquence. And on the issue of women’s ordination to the gospel ministry in the Adventist church, too much has already been said. Books have been written on both sides of the issue. The anti-ordination camp have urged that the Bible settles this issue decidedly. The pro-ordination camp retorts that the Bible writers conformed to cultural norms in their day when they limited the role of women in local church administration.

And I, of course, have highly oversimplified the issue by making such a summary.

Complicating matters somewhat are the facts that the Bible abounds with evidence of women prophets, but never of a female priest.

Nevertheless, I agree with many who argue that the real issue at stake here is the question of scriptural authority versus higher critical naysaying.

The New Testament Data When the Bible outlines the qualifications for being an elder, they are worded in distinctly gender-specific terms. The elder is to be the “husband of one wife” and to “rule” his house well. The apostle argues that if he is not able to rule his house, how can he be expected to rule the church well?

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

If we ask the question, “who is authorized in the Bible to rule the home?” we have a simple answer even in Genesis 3:16. Paul makes reference to this fact also in the verses just before the ones above.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

These three verses are located just between an exhortation to women to adorn themselves with meekness and the announcement that if a “man desire the office” of an elder, that he does well. In other words, the “teaching” in verse 12 is united to the idea of “authority” in that verse because the verse is about teaching authority in the church. It is about the issue of women’s ordination to the position of “elder.”

The reason that a woman is refused such a position is plain in the passages above. She ought to be subject to her own husband. And how, then, can she be in authority over him? She ought to submit to his headship. How then can she rule well her own home?

These same arguments are used by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians.

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:35 And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The “speaking” here cannot be a reference to speaking in general. Earlier in the same book Paul laid down regulations for females to pray and prophecy in assembly. Rather, the speaking and silence and obedience here must be the same as those mentioned in the 1 Timothy verses. These speeches are the authoritative teaching of elders.

The idea of gender distinction in family government is plainly present in several other New Testament passages. (See Colossians 3:18, Ephesians 5:22-24, 1 Peter 3:1, 5-6.)

But what about the issue of prophets? We mentioned earlier that female prophets were present in Corinth. Even the female prophets, by the way they kept their hair, were to show their submission to their husband, their spiritual head.

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

This is not, of course, the only New Testament reference to women praying or prophesying. Acts 21:9 records that Philip had four daughters that were prophets. The assembly by the river was a meeting place for women and a place where prayer was routinely made. Acts 16:39.

Were women refused the position of elders because of cultural norms? If this was the case, Paul had opportunity to argue this way. But how did he found his argument? He founded it on the order of creation, the origin of sin, the teaching of nature regarding gender, the model of ancient holy persons. And never once did he found it on the customs of the Jews or of the Romans or of the varied peoples among whom he founded churches.

To ignore his reasoning while countering his conclusion is to discount his authority. And as I said in the introduction, this is the primary issue.

Were women involved in ministry in the New Testament? Indeed. Even Jesus had women that ministered to Him and that, to at least some extent, traveled with Him.

Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.

Lu 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Acts records the work of a husband-wife team that worked hand-in-hand with Paul, the author of the anti-ordain passage. Acts 18:2-3.

Why would God allow women to minister to Jesus, to plant churches, to prophesy and pray in public, and yet refuse to them the position of elder?

Prophets have no personal authority associated with their gift. They speak for God. Socially, if they are a daughter (as were Philip’s four prophets), then they still are a daughter. They are still subject to their father. And when God speaks through them, they are as subject to those words as are the others that hear.

So Ellen White can be a prophet and James White can be an elder and theirs can be a happy home. (And it was, most of their married life.)

By way of contrast, the position of elder has personal authority with it. Let me explain.

When men organize themselves into any type of group and choose one of their own number to be a director, they are choosing to submit part of their individual independence to each other and to the leader. They do this for efficiency. Even angels are ordered in such a way.

Are such men saying that one is fundamentally superior to themselves in strength or intelligence? No. All they are really doing is saying that things will work better if there is order.

That is what the church does. If women were not an integral part of church life, then there would be no need to refuse to them the position of elder. God has ordained that the order in the family be reflected and supported by the order in the church.

So women may teach Sabbath school classes. They may conduct VBS. They may lead a stewardship drive. They may help their husbands plant a church. They may even do pastoral work in the fullest sense of caring for the flock. But may they be placed in headship over the flock? No. That would upset the order of the family.

But what if she is single? No, that won’t fix it. To put her in the elder’s position would be to forbid her to marry. And that would not be right.

Old Testament Data In the Old Testament women figure prominently. Huldah the prophet was probably a professor in the “college.” Deborah was the courage behind Barak’s success. Miriam won the hearts of her nation and led them in anthems. Women show up most often in their positions as significant mothers.

But never, in all the history of the Old Testament, do we find a female priest.

“Wait!” says one. “Wasn’t it a whole nation of priests?” Oh, yes, that is true. But that was part of Korah’s argument when he wanted to be a priest. And it didn’t hold much theological weight in Numbers 16.

The fact is that when we select a man to be an elder, he is our peer. We are not obliged to believe what he says. He is not our king. But we are to respect his headship for order’s sake.

In like manner, when God chose an Old Testament person to be a priest, he was a peer of his wife and relatives and fellow Israelites. But they were a kingdom of priests. But they all surrendered a bit of their individual independence for the best good of the body. And so they respected their God-chosen priests.

This is how Luther explained it when he preached about the priesthood of believers. He wrote that the priesthood belongs to everyone, but that not everyone can exercise it. So the body chooses who will exercise the authority that they all possess. (If they didn’t possess it, he reasoned, they wouldn’t be able to give it to their pastor.)

Ellen White and Adventist History While the prophet lived the issue of woman’s suffrage was a hot political one. Women had taken the lead in many social issues, from nursing to the care of deranged persons, to the advocacy of temperance.

And in the Adventist church itself a group of women led out in one of the most successful and pervasive of all revivals, the introduction of the Tract and Missionary Society. That organization was often presided by a woman and was one of the most significant positions in the denomination.

But women were not ordained to the gospel ministry. We were the people of the Book. And the Book spoke clearly on this issue. We had a woman prophet and the Book smiled on that. It did not smile on the idea of having women elders. (Ordaining women was suggested once in meeting. It didn’t get as far as a vote.)

Conclusion For years I have hesitated to write on this issue, and for only one reason. I wasn’t sure where to draw the line Biblically regarding women teaching and leading in church functions outside that of ordained elder. That issue is resolved for me now by the proximity of 1 Timothy 2 to 1 Timothy 3.

The Bible isn’t confusing. If it takes long arguments to make it that way, the arguments are at fault rather than the Bible.

If a man desires the office of an elder, he desires a good thing.

If a woman desires the same, she doesn’t understand. She cannot rule her house well. If she rules it, that is not well. And so, like all the other members of the church, she gives of her priesthood authority to the men chosen by her and by the church to exercise it. And then she respects that authority that, originally, was hers.