Edward C. Allred
It hardly seems possible that La Sierra University, which still purports to be a Seventh-day Adventist school, would name anything after a man who has left such a trail of wreckage in his wake, a man who made his fortune eliminating two generations of humanity, and now spends his days devising ways to separate gamblers from their money. And yet they did. But apparently they are not proud to be associated with his life work, as shown by the misleading information on their website:
Dr. Allred has always been an entrepreneur, whether in his innovative and financially successful medical practice or in his lifelong commitment to the sport and business of quarter horse racing in the United States and Southern California in particular. To both he has brought not only sound and creative business practices but also a deep interest in his colleagues and employees and a genuine care for their well being.
To characterize a business with annual revenues of $70 million from 23 outlets in two states as a “medical practice” goes beyond spin and crosses over into dissimulation.
In 1969, Dr. Edward C. Allred, a graduate of La Sierra University and Loma Linda University, founded the “Avalon-Slauson Medical Group,” which was later renamed “Family Planning Associates.” Although this was before the Supreme Court effectively legalized abortion nationwide in Roe v. Wade (1973), California had already legalized abortion in several situations, and hence many women traveled to California to have abortions. “We had planeloads of people coming in,” recalled Allred to a Los Angeles Times reporter in 2002, “We’d meet them at the airport with a bus.”
In 1980, Allred claimed to have personally aborted a quarter of a million fetuses in the preceding 12 years. It may seem difficult to believe that one man could perform so many abortions, but Allred tried to spend no more than five minutes with each pregnant woman. “We’ve been pioneers in so many ways,” he once told a reporter. “We streamlined, we made efficiencies, we employed the suction technique better than anyone, and we eliminated needless patient-physician contact. We usually see the patient for the first time on the operating table and then not again.” Spending only five minutes per patient would have allowed Allred to perform as many as 100 abortions in a 10-12 hour working day, and 200 working days per year (50 four-day work weeks) would, over 12 years, add up to 240,000 aborted fetuses. So Allred’s estimate of the number of abortions he performed during that time is credible.
You might wonder how a person who has aborted a very large city worth of human lives salves his conscience. The pioneers of abortion, such as Margaret Sanger, were quite explicit in favoring it as a means of weeding out undesirables and the unfit, and there was general agreement that the black race was undesirable. Dr. Allred has, at least on one occasion, voiced similar thoughts.
Population control is too important to be stopped by some right-wing pro-life types. . . . The Aid to Families with Dependent Children program is the worst boondoggle ever created. When a sullen black woman of 17 or 18 can decide to have a baby and get welfare and food stamps and become a burden to all of us, it’s time to stop. In parts of South Los Angeles, having babies for welfare is the only industry the people have. Edward C. Allred, M.D. quoted in Anthony Perry, “Doctor’s Abortion Business is Lucrative,” San Diego Union, October 12, 1980, pages A-3 and A-14.
Family Planning Associates expanded to the point where Allred owned 21 abortion clinics in California and two in Chicago. According to a 2001 article in Forbes Magazine, Allred’s business generated $70 million in annual gross revenues and $5 million in annual profits. Just as McDonald’s founder Ray Kroc pioneered efficiencies and economies of scale in the hamburger business, Edward C. Allred pioneered efficiencies in the abortion clinic business, causing some to call Allred “the Ray Kroc of abortions.”
But things did not always go smoothly; there have been post-abortion deaths, and Allred has been sued many times. One abortion technique Allred used in the early days was saline amniocentesis–injecting saline in place of the normal amniotic fluid–which slowly poisons the baby while burning its skin. This method was usually used in late-term abortions, and the baby typically took an hour to 90 minutes to die. In 1977, Gianna Jessen’s 17-year-old mother went to Dr. Allred’s Avalon Clinic in Inglewood, California, seeking to abort a pregnancy of 29 weeks (seven months). Dr. Allred used the salt poisoning method, underestimating the amount of saline necessary to kill the fetus, which began struggling to escape the deadly womb. Gianna Jessen was born alive, and Dr. Allred is listed on her birth certificate as the doctor who delivered her. Gianna suffers from cerebral palsy, which she calls the gift of cerebral palsy, and today has become a prominent spokeswoman in the pro-life movement.
Dr. Allred sold Family Planning Associates in 2005, and has retired from the abortion business. He devotes his time to a hobby and passion he acquired while still in medical school: horse racing. Dr. Allred now owns Los Alamitos Race Track in Cypress, California, and Ruidoso Downs, in New Mexico. Horse racing is a very dangerous “sport,” and the exploitation of jockeys is one of the most under reported aspects of that “sport” (really just an excuse for gambling).
Jockeys are independent contractors who earn on average about $38,000 per year; for a basic “mount fee” of as little as $60.00 per race, they risk death and paralysis. In a typical year, at least one or two jockeys are killed or suffer catastrophic spinal cord injuries, and yet the tracks do not carry adequate insurance. A paralyzed jockey will typically burn through a million dollars in medical bills in the first 2 years after the accident. This isn’t a theoretical concern; on September 2, 2011, Jacky Martin suffered a broken neck in a fall at Ruidoso Downs, is now a quadriplegic, and needs mechanical help to breathe. Ruidoso downs reportedly carries only $500,000 in accident insurance, and, as in almost every case of this type, that is grossly inadequate to provide for Jacky Martin’s ongoing medical needs.
These men and women risk death an catastrophic injury almost solely to provide an occasion for gambling. At Los Alamitos, the daily “handle,” or total dollar amount of bets taken in, was reported to be $1.3 million. Allred decided to simulcast Los Alamitos races to other venues, thus enabling gamblers to bet and lose money on races that they did not attend. Ruidoso Downs had been losing money, but Allred and his partners made the track profitable by adding 300 slot machines, some of which are proudly shown on the track’s website. Attendance at horse racing venues has sharply declined in recent years, and industry insiders say the “sport” cannot survive without casino-style gaming at the tracks. But is saving the tracks in the public’s interest? According to the National Gambling Impact Study Commission (NGISC), more than one in three racetrack patrons is a pathological or problem gambler, so the tracks cause financial problems for the patrons, as well as causing jockeys to risk death and quadriplegia.
Back to La Sierra University. The Board of Directors is stocked with Adventist Church leaders. Pacific Union president Ricardo Graham is Chairman of the Board of Trustees, and all the affiliated conference presidents within the Pacific Union are also board members. These are all decent men, so it is difficult to understand how they could have allowed La Sierra to become associated with such a person as Edward C. Allred. This sad incident, along with previous stories—such as the issuing of tax-free bonds that came with a secularizing bond covenant, and the ongoing failure to prevent Darwinism being inculcated as truth—call into question whether the Board of Trustees is exercising any meaningful oversight at all.
If the church leadership in the region cannot reform La Sierra, world church leadership must take action. If La Sierra cannot be reformed, it must be clearly and publicly separated from the official church.
George,
Disgruntled? Yes, but for a valid moral reason! The decided to cease to work for physicians who were trained to the art of healing but opted to the art of killing innocent human being instead!
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrath George Evans I appreciate all the SDA history info Doug and was not aware of it. It is certainly something to think about. My biggest question is that if this were so important, why does not Mrs. White say anything specifically about it? Nowhere that i have seen, does she call it “murder” like her husband does.
James White and Kellogg also wrote lots about self-abuse, and Mrs. White chimed in with plenty to say about that also. So tell me then, why the silence on abortion? It seems some of the guys writing here think abortion is just as bad a sin as not keeping Sabbath, yet I haven’t seen anyone call masturbation a crime that will keep us out of heaven as she calls it. Would you, Doug, have masturbation outlawed in the USA because Ellen White speaks against it far more strongly and often as she would say anything about abortion? Perhaps you will say that since abortion was already outlawed in America in her day that she did not feel the need to say anything about it, and that would be a feasible argument. Also, you could say that masturbation only hurts ourselves and not others like abortion does in the sense that it does not allow a life to live (but that does not mean God won’t take that child to heaven) and that most people of her day did not talk about masturbation where they did abortion, so she felt the need to talk more about masturbation. These are decent arguments that have some weight, but really do not answer things for sure. For she spoke much against alcohol at the very time many others were also in the Temperence movement, though granted it was not outlawed>
And we must remember that back then they did not have the abortion procedures that we have today–as someone else said here. They pulled nearly born babies out with hooks it seems.
But I am sorry–while I am basically against abortion personally, as I have said many times—yet I totally and completely, in friendliness, disagree with you that the Religious Right is no harm to America and religious freedom. Nothing you can say can sway me a bit on that. It is proven clearly when one studies it. And I also believe that abortion is an opening wedge that will lead to Sunday Laws in America. I am sorry f you feel upset at me for that, but it is what is very clear to me and this is one of the main reasons I think it wise that SDA’s do not push for anti-abortion laws. Abortion is not out and out murder on the same level as me shooting someone and thus is not punishable with the same punishment. If you think so, that is your choice, but I have a hard time believing how anyone could send a young girl to jail for her whole life, or even part of her life, for allowing her unborn child to be aborted. It simply is not on the same level of justice.
George,
You argue that a human body has no moral value. This logic is based on Greek philosophy–not Adventist doctrine! Paul claimed that our body is God Temple and that our duty is to take care of it. We should be afraid to destroy God’s Holy Temple because it is the abode of the Holy Spirit.
Nic Samojluk You wrote that the nurse who’s testimony you used had “decided to cease to work for physicians who were trained to the art of healing but opted to the art of killing innocent human being instead!” That’s OK. It doesn’t say their testimony is wrong, just biased.
Nic Samojluk You wrote, “You argue that a human body has no moral value…Paul claimed that our body is God Temple…” I was speaking of a body alone. Paul is talking about a body with a brain since he says don’t YOU know that YOUR body is a temple.
Nic Samojluk I am growing to appreciate your poetic nature. You word pictures are beautiful. A growing fetus is close to a mothers heart for a reason. But you nearly spoil all that by prefacing it with this, “My view is that the unborn does not lack a soul. It is rather those defending the legality of abortion who lack a soul.”
You think I lack a soul. I don’t think so. I am typing to you right now. You betray a wishy washy view of the word “soul”. How are we to trust you when you talk about the fetal soul?
George,
I have already stated this before and I will repeat this: John Todd was not an Adventist. The reason I included this was because James White included that stament in his publication.
I was working on the assumption that the name of the author was included in the reference I provided. It was mea culpa and I need to thank you for calling my attention to this. I hope this helps!
George Evans BenardCampomanes George, you bring up a problem I also see with the pro-life argument. If one is truly pro-life, then why use any contraception at all? Why don’t we all just have sex any time we want, and not use any type of birth control?
If we use birth control of any kind, doesn’t that mean that we are also committing murder because God may want to be giving us babies from our sexual contact, but we are frustrating His plans? This is exactly where the Religious Right and Catholic views lead to, as seen in the beliefs of Rick Santorum. It was almost inconceivable to me that any Christian would vote for someone who believed the country had a right to outlaw birth control. That is a Catholic doctrine through and through. I think almost the whole country would be sent to jail if that were a crime, yet Christians are so anti-abortion and so intent on making America a “Christian Nation” that they were willing to vote for that guy (and I am not saying he is not nice or does good things, but he just would have brought religious liberty problems to our country). I am sure many who voted for him also practice birth control of some sort.
I agree with you that God gives us a part in creation and it is up to us to decide when we want children. God does not force children down our throats whether we want them or not. That would not be a loving God who gives free choice in creating. At some point we have to draw a line between when we want something or not, and that is what is at issue. Do we stop at natural birth control? Do we stop at artificial birth control/ Do we stop at the first trimester, etc. Creating children is part of our choice that God has given us. We also see that God doesn’t need sperm and eggs to make a baby, because Isaac was born after Abraham and Sarah were dead–and yes, the Bible says Abraham and Sarah were “dead” because they couldn’t have babies anymore!! So does that mean that if we don’t use our “Life” when we have sperm and eggs that are living, by connecting them in sex, that we are murdering?!! Of course not!!
So those who are rabidly anti-abortion in making it murder that should be outlawed, really should go all the way and have sex as often as possible to bring life into the world and never use any kind of birth control to be consistent in their views. If they are not using their living sperm, then they are killing life, as seen in a woman’s monthly period, if we are to take that line of reasoning to extremes.
Kennan McGrath George Evans BenardCampomanes Like I said. If it doesn’t agree with SDA interpretaion or insistance it must be . . . the work of the Roman Catholic Church.
SDA’s give way too much credit to Rome that Rome doesn’t neet Marketing Campaign. Just let the SDAs talk and inevitably it will be revelated that Rome created the world.
It makes great Revelation Seminars and it’s that glue that binds Adventists. Are you forgetting that the Christians will be rising up soon to kill Adventists?!?! Abortion ot not it’s a lost cause!
Simply amazing!
Doug Yowell BenardCampomanes Doug wrote, “historic Adventism was unanimously anti-abortion/pro-life.” I too am “unanimously” anti-abortion in the second and third trimester when the abortions back then happened and I am always “unanimously” pro-life.
Kennan McGrath George Evans What were those words again that began Galatians 3 . . . ” You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you. . . .” Incredible!!
George, Whether you label abortion as “murder” or not does not impact many women in their later grief. Many women morn for decades, but would not accept the label “murderer”. They see a young person about the age of their almost child and feels guilt. They see the love of a teen or young adult for their parent and they morn. Even the civil definition of murder has 1-2 & 3 degrees. We will have to wait till we get to heaven to see God’s exact definition of this sin, but sin it is. It misses the mark. Kennan’s past girlfriend illustrates this well. Kennan probably told her he did not consider her a murderer, but the story shows she had lingering low self worth that led to to abusive relationships. To label someone a murderer feels abusive in our culture, but it should be called sin. There will be a spiritual consequense to this sin, in this life and the next if there is not remorse and repentance. // Kennen, yes, end the death penalty as it costs more to publicly defend than to house them for life. One never knows if in time they will repent and be saved.
Benard, if you are now a Catholic, I would like to know how you justify the Catholic position against all birth control even in marriage. other than “rhythm” which I understand is allowed, but not barrior methods.
Kennan McGrath Doug Yowell George Evans Masturbation is self abuse. A person does it to themselves not someone else. Abortion is taking the life of someone…someone who cannot defend themselves. And, by the way, sin is sin. Whether it’s written about at length or not it still will keep a person out of heaven. Just a thought….does anyone know how prevalent abortion was in Mrs. White’s day?
Kennan McGrath Doug Yowell George Evans Why are you compartmentalizing “life”. Life is life. If something has the breathe of life in it then it is a living being. If a spermatazoa and an egg unite a human being is the result. Certainly it takes 5 – 10 months for the child to be able to breathe on it’s own outside the womb but it is nonetheless a valid life.
George Evans Doug Yowell And a baby living insode the womb will die if unplugged…
Elizabeth Iskander Thank you for sharing these thoughts on grief. I am anxious to know how a more robust understanding of sanctuary psychology might help to comfort women in post abortion grief better than our present psychology.
Nic Samojluk George is your neighbor as well, Nic, so to say that those defending the legality of abortion do not have a soul, is not really being kind to a neighbor who disagrees with you is it? Your arguments would have better effect if you tamed down the strong rhetoric against people who disagree with you. I know George talked about the Jesuit thing and I don’t look at you as a Jesuit, so no need for that strong language by George either, though I see what he was getting at with the Catholicism thing that people are going to because they don’t like how SDA’s are silent on abortion. There may be good reasons we are silent and that doesn’t excuse people to leave the church for Catholicism. You have some good arguments and some I do not agree with at this point, but I appreciate your work and respect you.
BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander What doctrine was the veil lifted from? Just curious.
Elizabeth Iskander I am not a Roman Catholic
George, please read Wikipedia on History of Abortion. There were methods of 1st trimester abortion in EGWs day.
julietrailblazer Kennan McGrath Doug Yowell George Evans What I am saying, Julie, is that if God really wanted my dad to live, He could have easily resurrected him from the dead as much as He could resurrect him from being brain dead and no way of ever reviving humanly speaking. He was gone and just on life support artificially.
By the way, while I may disagree with you on some of your views as far as making all choose not to abort, yet I highly appreciate your choice not to and follow your conscience in the matter. I think it is best in most cases to go the way you did, but I just cannot say that all have to choose that way. But I appreciate very much your sharing your heart and sensitivity and feelings of what you went through in your life.
Elizabeth Iskander The assumption that is made when when calling abortion the murder of the growing child in the mother’s womb is that it often only applied to the mother or the family members involved in the abortion. They are made to feel unending guilt. Often they are wrongly counseled to have the abortion our pressured to have one. Personally I think it is the practitioners and providers of the abortion that are guilty the ones as they give service to someone who is already under pressure or emotional duress. I have two family members that have had abortions. I do not damn them yet I can be consistent and call abortion murder and murder is a sin.
Notice that the statement also does not damn the individual or victims of abortion. As Christians we do not condemn or hate the women and families who were faced or advised to pursue an abortion. I do not believe it is an easy decision then or even after, but it is still a sin. While murder is a sin we have all sinned, there is NO SIN our Lord can not save us from or forgive us when the Holy Spirit is working on us. Scripture is clear on that. In contrast to providing the abortion the role of the Christian role is to provide care, Godly counsleing, hope of forgiveness to all those affected by the murder of a growing child in the womb. This peace and forgiveness is only available through the Saviour who can forgive our sins.
I do think as Christians we should confront and challenge the fact someone or institutions, who claim to be a Christian, would perform or fund abortions. Abortion is the attempt to stymie God’s will of whom He chooses to give life once the child begins to grow in teh womb, and make that decision ourselves. It is the work of Satan and Satan’s desire was to be like God. What business does anyone or any Institution that claims to be Christian have in lending their hand to this demonic work.
julietrailblazer Kennan McGrath Doug Yowell George Evans I agree to a point, yet Mrs. White says that excessive masturbation can lead to insanity or disease, which does affect others by having to provide medical care for them. Also, a man or woman masturbating to pornography hurts a marriage relation or makes them selfish. It is true this is not the same as taking a life, but at the same time, the aborted baby would never know he/she had a life anyway, and so I don’t see how that really hurts them. If you argue that it is a soul that could have been saved, you could argue the same thing about birth control that prevents a baby from happening. Plus, God can save an aborted baby if He so chooses. Just because the baby doesn’t live here does not mean he/she cannot live a great life in heaven.
And a hard question is-why would God condemn us for taking a baby’s life that cannot defend itself, when He Himself allows many stillborns and miscarriages? Why does He not let the baby defend themselves? Yes, God may know if that baby may have turned evil and so He didn’t let it live, but He allows many that are evil anyway. I know mothers who years later were sad about their stillborn child who they wanted so much. So that is a question I find no real answer for. Yes, God knows best, but why would He even allow a sperm and egg to get together in the first place and then produce a stillborn baby, if the life of a baby is so sacred to Him that He gets very upset if a girl chooses to have an abortion.
Elizabeth Iskander Yes, I did fully accept that girl no matter what her past was, but she just could not feel she could overcome sin and did not really accept herself as God forgives. This experience was one of the strongest things to me against abortion. However, I am not sure if others made her feel guilty and her guilt was not so much from God as from them. Also, she may not have fully given up the love for sex before marriage that had gotten her in trouble in the first place. And in her case, she had wanted to keep the baby once she knew she was pregnant but her boyfriend didn’t and she listened to him. That may be different than a girl who does not want the baby. I am not a girl obviously, so on those matters I would listen to what women have to say, though I still would not make a law in America punishing girls with murder who abort. And you bring up a good point that even in our laws there are different degrees of murder, so if there was a law against abortion, I would make it the mildest degree of punishment.
My biggest problem is with the Religious Right who make it out to be no different than out and out shooting someone. I have talked with people who think the same punishment should be given to those who have an abortion as those who shoot someone, and that is just plain fanatical and wrong.
I do lean against the death penalty myself, but neither do I think God condemns a country who chooses to implement the death penalty on those who have committed heinous crimes. They usually have plenty of time to think about what they have done and repent anyways while waiting for punishment
BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander I agree with much of what you say here, Bernard about how no sin our Lord cannot save us from. I also think that those who provide abortion are “more” to blame in general than those who have them. However, I still do not believe doctors should be outlawed who perform them. However if I were a Christian doctor I would not feel right in doing so in most cases and certainly would talk to the girl more than once before giving it, if at all. II would feel odd doing it. If I did, I would not wish to make money out of it. But I think it is better for a Christian doctor to refer a girl who insists on having one to a doctor that does not believe it is wrong for him to do. I am sure you do not agree with me on much I have said, but I do appreciate your views and are glad that you are not out and out condemnatory of any girl who gets an abortion, though they are at fault as well, and all cannot be blamed on the doctor.
BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander Bernard, you wrote, “Personally I think it is the practitioners and providers of the abortion that are guilty.” I don’t know if this would help comfort a mother. You are still stigmatizing the act by calling it murder. The mother is still being viewed as an accessory.
Of your family members you say, “I do not damn them yet I can be consistent and call abortion murder and murder is a sin.” If their abortions were in the first trimester, What purpose is served by calling it a murder in the first place? Why do that unnecessarily to a loved one?
Trying to make it better by saying we have all sinned is small comfort, because if they believe they have murdered an innocent child, what crime is worse than that? It would be far better to explain that there really wasn’t an innocent child there.
George Evans BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander I agree, George. Calling it “murder” makes it sound like they are criminals out to kill life, which is not true for the vast majority of girls who get it. A few may be real murderers, thieves and drug addicts, but most are not the kind who would go and shoot someone. Many are decent girls who made a mistake. It is ok to say they made a mistake in getting together with a guy before marriage in premarital sex, but to call them a murderer is not right. You are right also in saying a parent is an accomplice in murder is wrongly labeling them as well.
Jesus says when we hate our brothers and sisters it is murder too, so we need to be careful of hating or too strongly putting down anyone on either side of the issue, lest we be “murderers” ourselves. People who get all up in arms and burn abortion clinics are no better than the people they claim to be “cleansing”. So there are differing levels of “murder” and we should come up with a better term than “murder” for abortion, because the vast majority of these girls are not doing it because they hate anyone or want to go on a shooting spree. But at the same time, they need to realize that there are consequences to freely playing around with sex, thinking they can get away with it.
BenardCampomanes You say my ”argument for the right to murder a growing child in the mother’s womb is based on arrogance and giving too much credit to the creation’s role in having children.” How is that not just your opinion. I can put a chassis on the assembly line when I choose, so how do you show from the bible that I can’t take it back off if it hasn’t become a living soul yet?
Elizabeth Iskander Thanks for the tip. I was basing my comment on the words of Dr. John Todd whose quote has been tossed around for a few days. His description included, “It is quenching immortal existence, it is destroying what, in a few months or weeks, would bear God’s image.” He seems to be focused on late term.
Elizabeth Iskander Thanks for the tip. I was basing my comment on the Dr. John Todd statement that has been tossed around here. In describing abortion he said “It is quenching immortal existence, it is destroying what, in a few months or weeks, would bear God’s image.” It sounds like he is focused on the last half of gestation.
Kennan McGrath julietrailblazer Doug Yowell George Evans You miss a very important comment by Jesus on this matter. “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe be to him through whom they come.” If you allow for the human to exercise the same life and death authority as God over human life then you argue for universal anarchy and set up humanity’s will as equal to God. If we allow for abortion on demand we nullify every Scriptural mandate for the sanctity of any human life, including any responsibility for our own bodies. See ya later to the “health message”. If we argue that the unborn would never “know” they had a life then how do we condemn killing a baby one minute, one hour, one day old? Knowledge defines no one as human, nor does it contribute to human value.
I appreciate your attitude but you still find yourself 180 degrees apart from historic Christianity and Adventism. And the fact that EGW did not take the position you take nor criticize the position we take, even though abortion was being criminalized in her lifetime, should give you more reasons to suspect that your direction is not in harmony with hers.
George,
Regarding the third quote which was written by John Todd an cited by James White, you were quick to jump to the worse assumption about my intention. You suggested that my intention was to deceive the readers of this blog into believing that the quote was written by Ellen White. I would never do that! I included said quotation fully aware that John Todd was the author. My mistake was to assume that his name was included in the reference I provided. I hope others will not judge your intentions in the way you judged mine!
George,
True! A first trimester unborn baby probably feels no pain. The same is true about a person under anesthesia.
julietrailblazer George Evans Doug Yowell Exacto mundo, Julie. And the unborn baby will not die if left “unplugged”.
George,
I wish I were on Mars! I would be able to demonstrate that there is no water nor life there. But believe me: there is life inside the uterus of a pregnant woman, and it is human life with its own DNA.
Nic Samojluk I am sorry for any hardship I caused you. I am glad we got it straight. In my defense, his quote provided half your “pioneers claiming murder” fire power, so the oversight on your part was particularly prejudicial. Several people have now been touting exaggerated claims about the use of the M word in the past.
Kennan McGrath Elizabeth Iskander Your understanding of what the Religious right believes about abortion (and other issues)is not accurate,KM. I and both our SDA pioneers and every anti-abortion SDA believe the same things about the issue. You wrongly paint all of us with a brush that has been provided by those who intentionally distort our beliefs because they want to continue the process that we oppose and are willing to do anything to accomplish their goal.I studied my way out of the evangelical world and ended up SDA. Few Adventists realize that we used to have more in common than not. The pro-life arguments we state here are identical to those trumpeted by our pioneers (only they had no vocal opposition from within the church). And the pioneers, as you can see by the evidence I provided, held the same exact views of the killing of the unborn as did all Christians of their day.
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrath julietrailblazer George Evans Doug Y. said to George: ”If you allow for the human to exercise the same life and death authority as God over human life then you argue for universal anarchy and set up humanity’s will as equal to God.”
Do you think God has given us any say in bringing forth life, Doug? If we say that God alone makes all the choices in giving us babies or not, does that mean that He impresses us each night whether a couple should have sex that night or not because the time is ripe for a baby? Does He force men and women to have babies whether they want them or not? Is sex just for procreation? Do men and women have to always be afraid of having a baby if they have sex, thus taking away the enjoyment and bonding of the two? Is God responsible for directly making couples who want babies not able to have them when they have defects that keep a couple from conceiving? Does He give couples who have 15 kids but can’t afford them, those 15 kids because He wants to teach them a lesson that they cannot afford them?
I know some of these questions are silly, but the point is that God gives us some say in the matter of bringing children into the world and He doesn’t stand up there arbitrarily sending angels out to everyone having sex and saying; “Now go and stop this couple having sex from having a baby and let this couple over here have one”. He may do that in some cases, but in my view, most of the time He lets nature take its course, that He originally put life into. Just the same as He originally gave Adam and Eve life and that life spark was strong at first and mankind lived for nearly 1,000 years, but it has been getting weaker and weaker. That clearly shows that God set something up at the beginning and by natural process it weakens, not that He directly interferes all the time. Plus, He leaves it to us to apply health laws that can make us live longer. He doesn’t arbitrarily say “OK angels–now make it so that Doug lives 100 years and Kennan lives 80 and Elizabeth lives 45″. He gives us some say in how long we live by whether we take up the natural laws He has given us to help us live longer.
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrath Elizabeth Iskander Doug, you are not going to make any headway until you learn to differentiate early (when brain function is absent) from late (when brain function is present) abortion. Calling everything by one name breeds confusion.
Ron Stone Ron, Other than the ex-SDa Richard Fredricks I have heard zero from the pro-life side and only 1 from the pro-abort side. I’ve heard several pastors say that abortion (elective) is murder and in violation of God’s law. But no specifically focused sermon on abortion alone.It’s a subject that many SDA’s don’t want to think about. Don’t ask, don’t tell. The church is complicit in this attempted stonewalling. You can see here at ADvindicate the reluctance and even animosity of those who want us to have nothing to do with the subject. You will notice that the opposition to the historic pro-life position (like the WO issue as well)is divided on the many reasons why the unborn need not be protected. The heart of both arguments rests in the “silence” of both EGW and Scripture.The heart of the pro-life argument (like that of the anti-WO crowd) is that Scripture HAS spoken and Ellen White has, in principle supported. AS David has noted, the skeleton in the closet.
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrath Elizabeth Iskander Doug said to KM :”Your understanding of what the Religious right believes about abortion (and other issues)is not accurate,KM.”
I do not claim complete accuracy of all the Religious Right believes, but i have looked at quite a bit of what they believe. I know many of them supported Rick Santorum, who I strongly believe would be a danger to SDA’s and religious freedom and who had a fanatical view of birth control that is closer to Catholic belief than Protestants. Yet many Protestants were saying he was just what we needed. I have seen extreme statements by James Dobson and Pat Robertsonand many others on abortion and making this a “Christian Nation” by law.I have seen a major tv preacher (forgot his name, but saw it several years ago) say that he used to be anticatholic, but now is no longer and felt we should honor John Paul 2 and that Protestants need to stop looking at Catholics as different from them. I have seen many statements by the Religious Right that Pastor Bohr and others clearly show that show how they want Catholics and Evangelicals to join together to save America and that our religious viewpoints are not so different after all. I have a book by Pat Robertson that even calls for making Sunday the day America should honor. So, yes, I am aware of many things the Religious Right say that I cannot condone.
I am not saying that everyone in the Religious Right are bad or insincere, just as I do of any other religious group we disagree with. But I do believe that they, or their descendants, will be the ones most likely to bring in the Sunday Laws and that plans are being made and implemented that we have been seeing for some time that are leading in that direction. I don’t know how many of them realize to what end they are going, but there certainly are some who know more than others do.
Doug Yowell Ron Stone Pastor Bohr says he does not condone abortion at all, but neither does he believe the Religious Right are an organization we should think are harmless. And he has no sermon out about abortion as far as I have heard.
BenardCampomanes Kennan McGrath George Evans Bernard, the more you come to know George the less incredulous your love for him will become.
Doug Yowell Ron Stone You must think me strange, Doug, to agree with you and David, etc on WO but not on everything about abortion. I think the difference between the two is that there is much more said in Scripture and EGW about the roles of men and women, then there is about abortion. The text in Psalms about God knowing us before we were born can simply mean that God knows everything ahead of time, and knew what we would be. Does not God have the same great plans for all of us at birth and not just special ones? Of course He does. But we don’t always choose His plans. David is not talking about abortion in those texts from what I can see. He is talking about God knowing everything and that God knew what he would be right from the beginning.
There is no clear text that I can see that says not to abort and neither is there any clear statement of EGW that I can see that says abortion is a crime that is murder, but maybe I haven’t seen enough yet. I have seen enough texts and EGW quotes and pioneer writings and good reasons to believe we should not ordain women, but I have not seen the same amount of evidence for abortion–excepting a couple things by our pioneers. But the pioneers are third place evidence, so I need more than what they say, even though i believe we should value and take into account what they say.
BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander You are correct. I have said for years that the best way to really see how people “feel” about abortion is to show them factually what exactly they really are. I have seen some and the results of some others, and it is not a pretty sight. One of the main reasons abortion clinics don’t even want the pregnant woman to see even an ultrasound of their baby!
Kennan McGrath Doug Yowell Ron Stone Many well intentioned and conservative pastors have bought into the Religious Right conspiracy theory (see David’s other great piece on gnosticism). Perhaps that’s why they continue to neglect mentioning the killing of 1.5 million of the unborn every year. Or maybe it’s just that they are afraid that if they devote any real Bible study time to the subject they will lose their positive influence. A friend of my enemy is…?
I hope “sanctuary psychology” is that the woman who had an abortion can come to a Communion service and experience in the Ordinance of Humility, a washing ritual that will help her feel that her sins have been fully washed away. This is the gospel sanctuary equivalent of the Laver where we are rebaptized in a small way to help us feel fully cleansed of our sin as we approach the holy of holiest Throne of Grace. This ceremony can be very helpful to someone psychologically suffering from longstanding guilt.
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrath Ron Stone
Doug, Nic or any others who think abortion should be outlawed.
Tell me, exactly what would you guys make as a law in the country for anyone who gets an abortion or a person who performs one? Should they be fined, jailed, put on death row? Should anyone participating in abortion be treated just like regular murderers are today? Should parents and boyfriends be punished as accomplices? I am curious as to what you think the appropriate civil punishment should be for this murder.
Elizabeth Iskander Salvation can be viewed as us approaching God’s throne, or it can be picture as Jesus approaching our throne in our inner sanctuary of the soul. You are using the first I am using the second.
Sanctuary psychology as I picture it would be more focused on the strong motivation to call abortion murder.
George,
You are right. Those nurses who quit the abortion business are definitely biased–biased towards life like the
Bible. The Bible tells us: “Choose life.” Of course, the Devil, who has been “a murderer from the beginning” wants us to choose death instead. Take your pick,my friend!
George Evans Nic Samojluk
I owe you a lunch!
Kennan McGrath George Evans BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander
We can use another word instead of murder, like pregnant interruption, but everybody knows that killing an innocent human being is defined as murder. Our Adventist pioneers had no problem using the M word. We are offended by its use. I have no problem substituting the M word with something less offensive as long as we agree that abortion is killing–or the act of depriving a human being of life if you prefer..
Ron Stone BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander
So true! They do not want to see an ultrasound because they know that it is a human being! And abortionists hate ultrasound machines because many women when they see the little rascal moving inside, they fall in love with the baby, and the abortionist has lost a chance to make a few bucks.
Nic Samojluk Kennan McGrath BenardCampomanes Elizabeth Iskander Nic wrote, “We can use another word instead of murder, like pregnant interruption, but everybody knows that killing an innocent human being is defined as murder.” Sorry, but it is not simply semantics. The problem is that about half way through pregnancy dust becomes a living soul, and you can’t murder dust, and you can’t deprive dust of life.
Think about your finger. Can you murder it?
Doug Yowell Ron Stone Doug made the ridiculously funny statement, “You can see here at ADvindicate the reluctance and even animosity of those who want us to have nothing to do with the subject.”
546 posts and climbing rapidly. If that’s reluctance…
George Evans said: “Sorry, but it is not simply semantics. The problem is that about half way through pregnancy dust becomes a living soul, and you can’t murder dust, and you can’t deprive dust of life.”
??? What exactly happens half way through pregnancy? Your statement is patently false. Have you ever studied human development in school?
Junker Jorge You ask, “What exactly happens half way through pregnancy?” A brain.
Test
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrathWhen you use 140 year old sources an attempt should be made to distinguish whether early or late abortions are the subject. We know more about fetal development now, most significantly that brain function starts near the middle of pregnancy. So a pioneer describing a late abortion as murder is different from one describing an early abortion as murder.
For example the recently famous Dr. John Todd was apparently talking about late abortions because he said “it is destroying what, in a few months or weeks, would bear God’s image.” Doug has not made any effort to make such a distinction.
There has been some good discussion, but now things have digressed. This thread is closed.
The punishment should be to remove the business license of those who perform it. Don’t pay for those who get it. Set up free adoption services. Set up refuge centers for women who feel forced into it. Create ads that honor the women who carry the baby to term and the blight of demographic suicide on the west. The natural consequenses of women who have illegal abortion is sufficeint to deter them and those who observe them from being so careless about birth control in the future. Provide free birth control.
Doug Yowell Kennan McGrath julietrailblazer Doug said, “If you allow for the human to exercise the same life and death authority as God over human life…” Authority over when to initiate a new set of DNA, and to abort the process doesn’t have to mean authority over the life or death of a soul.
We could have the freedom to set the chassis on the assembly line and remove it from the line and up the line God imposes His will by making it a living soul or not.
julietrailblazer Kennan McGrath Doug Yowell Juliet wrote, “If a spermatazoa and an egg unite a human being is the result.” We assume that this is true, but it could be sentimentalism. Fertilization can also be looked at as gene resorting. The zygote is just a bag containing the new shuffle.
It is a unique set of DNA but at that point it is just plans for a unique phenotype. There can be no person until the brain starts functioning. There is your compartmentalization. A person is multiple compartments. A first trimester fetus is a single compartment–incomplete.
julietrailblazer Doug Yowell A first trimester fetus is not a living soul or person. It is a body waiting for a mind. When my mother’s body was on the hospital bed with a dead brain, she was already gone. The two situations are identical.
Doug Yowell Elizabeth Iskander At 8 weeks there is not even a brain, so there can’t be brain function and an EEG cannot detect brain waves.
This is revolting!!!!!